Jacob Rushfinn: the full Headway funnel breakdown

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:12:08

Steve

Today I am joined by a very special guest. The mastermind behind retention blog. That's retention Dot blog, where you can learn how to better retain, monetize and engage customers. It is Jacob Rushton Jacob, thanks for being on, man.

00:00:12:10 - 00:00:15:08

Jacob

Hey, thanks for having me. Yeah, really excited to chat.

00:00:15:10 - 00:00:25:21

Steve

So Jacob, my first question is just, super simple one why did you get in the space in the first place? And like, what's so interesting about retention, monetization, onboarding flows. Like, how did you get into the space?

00:00:26:02 - 00:00:46:09

Jacob

Yes. So I you know, I've really been working in mobile most of my career, pretty much all of my career. I kind of just landed there. I was fortunate enough to kind of get in the earlier days when when mobile was still new. And so if you if you do a little bit, it was super valuable to a lot of companies and kind of and grew my career from there.

00:00:46:11 - 00:01:14:18

Jacob

I, I started off more in the life cycle marketing world in terms of email push and all of that. I think I was never really satisfied with, the impact I was making or my ability to influence other things. I would see things like, well, if only we could, change this sign up flow, we could get more email registrations that evolved, evolved into other things of maybe we could change this in the product, maybe we could change that.

00:01:14:18 - 00:01:40:17

Jacob

And so I slowly moved my way into more of the product growth world experimentation, owning more monetization and just different companies, different opportunities came up and took advantage of them. And the last, and so, you know, slowly made my way into subscription apps as well. I think, you know, subscription apps are booming. And, I think we're not even close to the ceiling of, a subscription app world.

00:01:40:17 - 00:01:56:08

Jacob

And so I just really, really love the space and opportunity there. And then the past couple years have been doing consulting and advising, as well as, writing retention dot blog, which has been a lot of fun to, to share all my insights and experience, with the world.

00:01:56:08 - 00:02:09:15

Steve

No, that's awesome man. Yeah, you clearly show a lot of your expertise on the The retention Dot blog. When I was, like, looking over there and just kind of looking at what you were getting into, I was like, this is like the perfect guy to talk to for this show. That being said, let's just jump into headwear. Let's just go right into it.

00:02:09:16 - 00:02:25:10

Steve

Headway is like one of these apps. It's similar to Blinkist, where they kind of summarize like books for you to help you learn more efficiently. I've never like, I've never even heard of these apps before, like a couple of months ago when we started getting into, figuring out what some of the big players are in the space, and then we saw something like Blinkist and Headway.

00:02:25:10 - 00:02:29:21

Steve

So now, have you ever used this product before, or are you like, familiar with the actual product itself?

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Jacob

Yeah, I've used them a little bit. I don't I don't use them extensively. I tried it out. I think how I think about is you remember SparkNotes when you were in school? You know, you didn't want to read the book. You go, you know, Google SparkNotes online to, to, to get the summary and then pretend to your teacher, you read it.

00:02:46:13 - 00:03:11:07

Jacob

I think it's, basically a natural extension of that. And I think it's you see, there's a lot of apps, right? They come from more real world or old, older technology, early internet use cases that kind of evolve and transform. And so I think they're pretty cool products. There's so many variations now, focused around, you know, learning and education, but taking a shortcut, I guess.

00:03:11:08 - 00:03:29:08

Jacob

And so I think that is that's very attractive to people, right, of, taking the easy way to learn things. But I think they're, they're both really cool products and there's. Yeah. Blinkist I think was around first and headway came a little later, but they're both they're probably two biggest ones in this space.

00:03:29:10 - 00:03:38:01

Steve

And it's interesting like going through the onboarding for both of them and being like it's a very similar, very similar onboarding strategy for both of them. So I found interesting.

00:03:38:03 - 00:03:53:01

Jacob

The the mobile world, and subscription world people, it's often a very copycat world where it's very easy to see what works for what another company. And so people are quick to, to follow along and test and try tactics they see working other places.

00:03:53:05 - 00:04:13:07

Steve

So that being said, let's just jump into this is a web funnel show after all. So we'll talk just briefly about kind of the web funnel strategy that they're running here. So I think we call it like a hybrid approach that they're running. So you can obviously sign up on the app where we've all bought an app. And you know, when you actually buy something on the App Store, you can confirm the side button to easy clicks.

00:04:13:13 - 00:04:25:01

Steve

But then they're also running this, web funnel strategy where, you know, you go on your desktop and you can sign up there. What is like the importance of running, approach like this for a company like headway?

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Jacob

It's can really change your acquisition, user acquisition, motion. And usually you're you're pairing it with paid user acquisition advertising. And so there's a few things really, the the value of the web two app approach grew from an iOS 14, where all the Apple privacy restrictions, it became a lot harder to attribute data and optimize, your ad campaigns.

00:04:55:09 - 00:05:26:01

Jacob

With web, you don't have those same limitations. So you can send essentially, you know, higher quality signals back to Meta or Google and not not a paid expert here. So I'm sure other people could could go into the intricacies there much better than I can. But what it also allows you to do is as well as sending back higher quality signals to potentially more efficiently run your campaigns, it also allows you to open up new ad inventory so you can there's different placements.

00:05:26:01 - 00:05:51:10

Jacob

So for, for example, a mobile ad or that direct specifically the App Store can run in different places ad on web direct and keeping you on web right in different places. And you can potentially reach different audience as well. And so not only can you improve the efficiency and performance of your ad campaigns, you can actually scale more efficiently, or just scale more because because you're opening up new inventory.

00:05:51:10 - 00:06:17:17

Jacob

And so, a lot of a lot of apps are trying to figure out this web app approach, and a lot of our are doing quite successfully. There's also the benefit of you get more money, right, where if you get someone to pay on web, you know, maybe there's a 5% stripe fee versus the 30% Apple fee. And so that's also quite attractive feature then this is not everyone will see this.

00:06:17:17 - 00:06:43:12

Jacob

But on web subscriptions you can often see higher renewal rates and better user retention overall. And so it's another attractive feature. I think the tricky part is how do you mix it in. Usually it's not all of one or all of the other. I think the the more sophisticated approach is running both web to app and app, acquisition funnels and figuring out how you layer it all together.

00:06:43:12 - 00:07:01:22

Steve

Yeah, totally. The attribution element is interesting. I know when we were first, like getting into like I was, I just recently kind of getting into like even knowing what the concept of a web funnel is. And it's interesting because there's a lot of smoke around, like Apple's 30% fee and like the stuff with Epic Games and all this stuff is there's a lot of smoke there.

00:07:01:22 - 00:07:09:21

Steve

And then finding out about the attribution element, it's like, that seems like almost it's like the more beneficial reason that a lot of people are doing this.

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Jacob

Yeah, yeah. It's it's it's kind of all of them combined really is that that makes it any one of them could be a big enough reason. But all of all of those reasons combined makes it a very attractive strategy.

00:07:21:12 - 00:07:42:15

Steve

And then I have another question here around, like actually building out your flow on the web versus on mobile when you're actually like building out an onboarding flow. I know that Head Waves was pretty similar going through the web and going through the actual app. Are there things to consider when, like designing an actual onboarding flow or a paywall, doing it through mobile versus doing it on the web?

00:07:42:15 - 00:08:08:01

Jacob

Yeah, yeah. It headways. There's a number of differences on web. They I think the most obvious one is it's longer. I don't think this is ubiquitously true, but it's often a longer web. Onboarding flow is important because there's higher friction on payment. So you don't have the easy, you know, tap to pay that you have on mobile.

00:08:08:03 - 00:08:33:15

Jacob

And so you have to build up a little more investment, build up a little more excitement to convince users to pay on web. I think that that's probably one of the core reasons of longer. You can also do a little bit different interaction, and you can, you should think about the clicking versus tapping or swiping and so interaction styles and then how you design the flow should be a little different as well.

00:08:33:19 - 00:08:51:18

Steve

And that being said let's just jump right into the actual onboarding itself. And so let me share here. We'll actually walk through the onboarding flow together I'll click through here I'll try not to. There's so many questions. So I'll try not to go super fast. But while you're talking I might be kind of just shuffling through like if that's okay with you.

00:08:51:19 - 00:09:02:16

Steve

Cool. So right off the bat you get kind of this h1 like become the most interesting person in the room. Is that something that you see often, like trying to just just show their value right away.

00:09:02:20 - 00:09:24:18

Jacob

Yeah. And so you want that powerful emotional, attention grabbing clock. That's a really interesting one. And you know what they do on web and mobile for that headline is a little different. So so I think that's interesting. Once you're in the app you're hooked a little more. And so I think they it kind of convey the value and give more details about what they're doing.

00:09:24:23 - 00:09:42:21

Jacob

First here on web. They're still selling you a little more. You haven't done as much. And so if you download the app you have the app. It's pretty high level of intent on web, super easy to just click from a web add on to here and explore with a little low level intent. And I think the the first question is super interesting.

00:09:42:21 - 00:10:00:02

Jacob

It doesn't give you a lot of context, right? Become the most interesting person in the room. And then it just diving right in. And so I believe this age question is so easy. It's just such an easy thing. There's four choices. You want to think about it. And so the goal here just to get you to continue it just to get you to start.

00:10:00:07 - 00:10:25:01

Jacob

And so these this question is a super simple question. And then once you dive in and you kind of start, you've built up a little momentum and now they reassure you and try to build trust to you. Hey you're in the right place. Everybody's doing it right. 40 million people already use the headway. Build trust through social proof, through press mentions, some testimonials and, and then you can continue through it.

00:10:25:01 - 00:10:51:20

Jacob

Again, very easy, simple questions. And so you'll see this flow of alternating between simple questions and kind of building trust. And so you see after you answer on one question, pause. All right. Now they reassure you, sell you on the value a little more, where if you're just asking questions and asking questions, that's taking more from people. And so you want to balance this between giving and taking, right.

00:10:51:20 - 00:11:17:09

Jacob

Getting investment is getting buy in. And that's more friction. And then versus kind of giving back, letting people know they're in the right place, getting people excited. And so I think these are these are interesting. Right? These, you know, which person inspires you? I think, you know, these are very aspirational figures. You've heard of them, and then they continue with these quick and easy questions and then alternate between this this flow.

00:11:17:09 - 00:11:34:12

Steve

Yeah. It's super interesting. The social proof element to like you mentioned, out of all the I've looked through a couple of these, onboarding flows and I noticed that headway has, like, it's like social proof galore, like literally there. We'll see it again towards the end of the flow, too. And they kind of just throw it in there a lot.

00:11:34:17 - 00:11:39:05

Steve

Like, how important is it to kind of reinforce social proof over and over again like they do here?

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Jacob

Usually it's good. I will say it's crucial. Usually it's very helpful, I think I think it's you can't get away like social. Just putting social proof will cover up. Like not having a compelling or engaging or interacting or value added onboarding, but usually adding it will help. But not you know, I think it's usually more is better there.

00:12:03:14 - 00:12:27:07

Jacob

It works in longer onboarding flows. Sometimes I test adding a social proof screen and some and onboarding flow sometimes doesn't do anything. So it's not like a panacea, but generally it's, a nice thing to have. I think something here that's really interesting, if you click on the thumbs up and I guess not everyone of them, but some of them have this personalization log read text box.

00:12:27:07 - 00:12:50:01

Jacob

So click on another one. See see if we get that again this is a this is a really nice touch I, I like these reassurances based on questions that are a little more sensitive. So do you feel good about your finances? It can be a pretty emotional question, right? If you say no, like you might, you might start thinking about your your debt or, or balance in your bank account or whatever.

00:12:50:01 - 00:13:07:19

Jacob

So this reassures you that they'll be able to help with that area. Thanks for sharing. We appreciate your honesty. It's kind of giving back because you may feel negative. So they want to counteract those negative feelings when asking those questions. And so this can be a really nice touch to add to your onboarding flow. And it can be done like this.

00:13:07:19 - 00:13:29:18

Jacob

Or you can have a follow up question. Or it can be done right as you tap something. And so think about think about your users emotions as they're entering, and going through the flow. If you're asking tough or negative questions, think about how you can manage their emotions and make them feel better, while also showing the value of your product at the same time.

00:13:29:20 - 00:13:49:01

Steve

Yeah, it's very interesting that kind of yeah, the push and pull of it all. And then we're getting more social proof kind of there. I thought this was interesting too. These kind of like these fun little examples where they give you the kind of fake book to, to kind of gauge your interest. Obviously, this helps tailor the experience of like using the products to the customer.

00:13:49:01 - 00:14:04:22

Steve

Like, you know, it feels like we're, you know, you're building a product just for me by me answering all these questions. Are there any other like things to consider, like benefits to like an extensive onboarding process like this other than just like retaining retaining customer and creating a better product experience?

00:14:05:01 - 00:14:36:13

Jacob

Well, well, after the you know, the the creating a better product experience is nice. Retaining customers is nice, but usually improves conversion. Usually that's the ultimate goal of getting someone more more bought in. And so the longer onboarding flows are designed for that. And it's it's interesting. You know, one note on these is, books is that it's actually different in the app or the most recent version I saw, instead of having you tap through with this same flow, they actually have a scrolling kind of list of a bunch of books where you can tap multiple books.

00:14:36:13 - 00:14:58:21

Jacob

And so I thought that was interesting. And it shows that sometimes, you know, your your onboarding flow and your mobile, experience can deviate. And especially if, you know, they're both, you know, driving a lot of traffic. And so you're optimizing them independently. A lot of times what happens is that you are it's harder to test and build in mobile.

00:14:58:23 - 00:15:12:20

Jacob

It's more expensive. It takes more time. So a lot of apps will test and build on the web and their onboarding flow and just bring whatever experiments work on web into the app for faster iterations and faster development.

00:15:12:22 - 00:15:30:11

Steve

And then if we jump into here, we get more social proof here. And then I believe after this is where we get our first paywall, no more questions. They keep going. So you got more questions. Here I was I thought it was interesting too that like so you have that bar at the top of the screen telling you the kind of the steps that you're going through and that kind of just disappears.

00:15:30:11 - 00:15:36:13

Steve

And they keep asking you questions. Do you think there's like a reason behind that or like, what are your thoughts on that?

00:15:36:15 - 00:15:55:18

Jacob

A progress bar is usually good. A progress bar that shows progress keeps people going. The the longer people go through the flow, the more likely they are to finish. It's kind of like a little cognitive bias or cognitive principle where people know they're they're closer to finishing, they're more likely to complete it. And so it's good to show that progress.

00:15:55:22 - 00:16:23:06

Jacob

It's also just like, you know, nice to go. Hey, here's how much is left. Just kind of provide context. My guess would be that this was added later. I think there's sometimes we have purposeful decisions, very thoughtful ones. Sometimes we're launching tasks and building new things. And so so I think they also go, once you've made it through there, you're probably more likely to complete these things.

00:16:23:11 - 00:16:46:11

Jacob

These are things are also more similar to their app, their mobile app flow. I think these are this is is pretty much the same style. And so I think they may go, hey, our quiz flow onboarding, it's done now. It's more personalization. I think those questions are also potentially being could be used in the product for personalization of of what they show with recommendations.

00:16:46:14 - 00:17:10:21

Jacob

So they may differentiate between their this quiz flow that they've testing and iterating on versus like this is more product flow. These little questions during the this loading screen are great. These simple. It's kind of silly sometimes. But these these yes or no questions right before you ask someone to pay. Is this this extra little nudge to build up investment, to build up buy in?

00:17:11:03 - 00:17:28:23

Jacob

And so you'll see a lot of apps have these in their onboarding flow in some way or another. Just these simple yes no that are like they don't really mean much. Some of them are more thoughtful and purposeful. Some of them are more like, hey, do you want to be more beautiful? Or do you want to like, lose weight?

00:17:28:23 - 00:17:44:15

Jacob

And everyone's like, yeah, of course. And so it's like just that. Yes. It's kind of the think about like the foot of the door technique. You get a small. Yes before you get to a big yes and the big yes. Is that asking someone to pay. And these loading screens are great as well. Where are these loading screens show.

00:17:44:18 - 00:17:54:15

Jacob

So the additional value. Not really loading. They're not really building anything. They're they're just but they're kind of selling you a little more on the personalization that they're adding to the product.

00:17:54:15 - 00:18:10:14

Steve

And it's like you naturally kind of feel like you want. It's like when you watch the loading screen go and go and go, you're like, you're naturally kind of want it to finish. So you're like, you think you, you know, you're getting closer and closer and closer. And then, you know, answering those questions becomes easier and easier. Watching that thing load.

00:18:10:16 - 00:18:17:04

Jacob

Exactly. And the more loading you go, oh, they're they're doing all this work for me. They're, they're building this amazing product for me.

00:18:17:06 - 00:18:37:06

Steve

Cool. So we put our email in here. They give us this little growth chart. I mean, this has been the same for every no matter what I answer it's the same. But I like how they they kind of act like it's, you know, it's tailored to you personally. And then also, I mean, we'll get more into the download, download friction element of it, but I like how they kind of sell the app here too.

00:18:37:08 - 00:18:40:23

Steve

In order to use the app, you'll need an Android or smartphone. So it's good.

00:18:41:01 - 00:18:45:21

Jacob

Good, good context. Let people know that that's what's coming next. Yep.

00:18:45:23 - 00:19:00:17

Steve

And I thought this page was interesting too. It's kind of like an amalgam of everything we've looked at. Like, you know, you have that like H1 again and then you kind of have the growth. They the growth plan again that kind of reinforces what the product does. And then you kind of have the social proof at the bottom.

00:19:00:19 - 00:19:06:01

Steve

I thought this was just an interesting page to kind of just show everything that we just did in one.

00:19:06:03 - 00:19:23:04

Jacob

I think if you wait, this bar actually changes the bottom to like, make it seem in real time. What what I was checking out earlier, I don't know if I did something, but it was like it was updating at some interval to, to like to, to make it seem more real. I don't know if it's actually, but

00:19:23:06 - 00:19:23:18

Jacob

Yeah.

00:19:23:20 - 00:19:34:13

Steve

Okay. And then we get hit with our first paywall. I'll probably skip over just for time's sake. I'll skip over the mobile onboarding. We can just jump right into the paywall stuff. We get hit with our first paywall here. What do you see in here that sticks out to you.

00:19:34:13 - 00:19:55:17

Jacob

So this is really interesting. So take a look at these prices. So one month say 51% three months save 60% 12 months same 50%. And intuitively you would think that you would want people on the longer plan. You want people to annual plan. You make more money, but they have. The most popular is a three months. They clearly want people to go to this one.

00:19:55:21 - 00:20:15:15

Jacob

So if you click on the three months, you'll see that your it said your subscription will be automatically renewed at full price of 4270 at the end of the subscription term. So you get this discounted term, you get the trial, you pay $0.19 per day. People, when your brain kind of just reads it as zero, so you don't even kind of think about it.

00:20:15:15 - 00:20:37:13

Jacob

They've broken it down per day, so it seems like almost nothing. I just see this big zero and that for the three months I'm starting to pay 16, 98, and then in three months it'll renew for that 4270 price. And so actually, if you go click on the 12 months, this would renew at $100 at the end of the year.

00:20:37:15 - 00:21:03:10

Jacob

But they would get that basically. So at the end of three months, if they renewed, they would have made what about, you know, $60 more than that initial annual price. And then if it keeps renewing, there's potential to make, you know, 140 or something like that. I don't think I did that math exactly right. But but, more by the end of the year.

00:21:03:10 - 00:21:21:17

Jacob

And so this is an interesting, a bit manipulative of this three month period. You don't think about it as much or news every three months. It renews once you go, darn. That's fine. I'm still using it. And then three months, it's long enough. It's not monthly, so you forget about it. You go, oh, I'll get some next time.

00:21:21:17 - 00:21:46:16

Jacob

And they probably get they've seen they get more money from this. And because on web you have higher renewal rates because it's less obvious. It's more hidden on your phone. It's super easy to see subscriptions. Apple sends lots of subscription reminders, notifications here. It's a little more hidden, causing higher renewal rates, probably causing why this three month plateau is more attractive on mobile.

00:21:46:16 - 00:22:02:13

Jacob

They push everybody to the annual plan because it's probably not. That's the same kind of easy renewals with with this three month plan. So it's really interesting, a bit manipulative, but very, very interesting how they're positioning everything to, to to make more money.

00:22:02:17 - 00:22:12:14

Steve

Yeah, it's super interesting. An interesting question on this to the discount. Is there a reason why it's at 51% instead of 50%, or is that just something they've probably tested?

00:22:12:16 - 00:22:35:06

Jacob

Well, so if you see the round number discount for the three months, it's probably something they tested. They they want to get to a price point of something with, you know, 99 or in this case, 98 at the end. I don't know exactly. One thought is that the math is a little harder to do in your head if they're not easy round numbers.

00:22:35:08 - 00:22:58:09

Jacob

And so when you're trying to think about this, you kind of just trust them. Maybe. I'm sure they've tested it to this most. It is interesting because most apps I see usually have round number prices. Like why are they pricing one month at 2365 like that. That that's that's interesting or 10202 like it's to get to that 4999 number.

00:22:58:14 - 00:23:20:17

Jacob

And so the really they, they started with the price the ending price. And then they work backwards of how can I show it at least a 50% discount. And I bet they've also tested in that 51% discount works better than 50% discount. It's more than 50%. But but yeah, it's super interesting. And then and then yeah, you also have that countdown timer.

00:23:20:19 - 00:23:39:14

Jacob

And if you click on you click continue and go to pay. Click on the card. I'm not sure if you saw this. Don't enter anything and press confirm payment. You know nothing will happen. And then exit out of this. And then you get you know, they show this discount. So then they upgrade the discount for everything.

00:23:39:14 - 00:23:56:14

Jacob

So now everything 61% and the discount even higher. And so it's a nice little win back or kind of, you know, reinforcement if you don't convert initially. And so a lot of apps do this you know after the paywall. So you show the paywall, don't convert the paywall. But how do you do it on a web. Because it's a little different flow.

00:23:56:14 - 00:24:11:04

Jacob

Right. And so I this is, you know, their attempt at doing something similar where someone enters payment. I'm not sure I'm ready yet. Close the payment screen and then go back and they get a little try to try one more time to convert you.

00:24:11:06 - 00:24:30:19

Steve

So let's jump into kind of, So this is at Padel. We obviously we love localized pricing. We love offering multiple payment methods. It's kind of our bread and butter. So when we actually ran this through VPN they do change the pricing to euros. I think it is true localization too. I think the price itself actually changes.

00:24:30:21 - 00:24:35:03

Steve

You want to talk a little bit about the importance of like localizing pricing and and what that does.

00:24:35:03 - 00:24:54:03

Jacob

Yeah. So there's two aspects that you touched on right. The currency showing the local currency that's important. And it's kind of a base level of hey, this product is for me. If I open this in the US and I see it in pounds or euros, I'm going to go, oh, they don't that I'm not really the target, consciously or unconsciously, I'm going to go, this isn't for me, doesn't it?

00:24:54:05 - 00:25:22:15

Jacob

I'm just going to it's going to put me off for a second. Then there's the localized pricing of actually adjusting pricing for, let's say, purchasing power in the local country. And so, you know, $9 U.S is not the same value as in India or as in Costa Rica or, you know, other countries that it's meaningfully more. And so this is this is really hard to do well, to be honest, to, to figure out how to adjust your prices locally.

00:25:22:15 - 00:25:32:22

Jacob

But it is it is very important if you if you are a global company and you are targeting, users all over the world, it can make a big difference in conversion right there.

00:25:32:22 - 00:25:50:01

Steve

Definitely. Yeah. I remember we had a chart. I think we've used it a couple times where it's like people in Brazil are willing to pay less than people in like the Nordic countries and things like that. There's there's just a huge variety there to consider. And then the other thing I want to talk about is just offering multiple payment methods.

00:25:50:03 - 00:26:02:03

Steve

So like, we know that people, people in China use like Alipay, people in the Netherlands use an app called ideal. So it's obviously important to diversify your payment methods. Do you want to just talk a little bit about that and how headways down there.

00:26:02:03 - 00:26:25:00

Jacob

Generally more payment options is better as it's a general rule. You know, on mobile it's very different, right? You have Apple Pay, you have Google Pay, Samsung Pay some places, if that's the whole thing. I, I don't know, but but basically, on web you want to meet people where they are. And as you say, different countries, have different you know, different payment methods that they typically use.

00:26:25:02 - 00:26:41:19

Jacob

And so offering up all the possible options is generally the right move. And you see they build a little trust with kind of the icons and pay safe and secure. But you know like this is hard to do right to if you don't have a tool like like paddle, I guess to make that easy to manage all the payment methods.

00:26:41:19 - 00:27:00:00

Jacob

And so I think generally trying to meet people where they are, maybe what they're comfortable with, people will opt in. A lot of times I like to just go with PayPal because I have all the information saved. I have my credit cards there. I don't know where my wallet is. Maybe it's another room, who knows? But if I just being able to default to their site, I think options are better.

00:27:00:00 - 00:27:26:11

Steve

We can move on to the last section here, which is just talking about going from web to app itself. So when we actually, you know, go through with buying the the actual hardware app itself, we get hit with the screen where it's like it's hard to see here. I should've made this a little bigger, but you can get it on Google Play App Store, or you can download the headway web app, or you can just, I mean, jump on the headway web app and actually click the App Store, download it downloaded like a desktop app for headway.

00:27:26:12 - 00:27:33:05

Steve

Do you think they could be more doing more here to like, get people to the mobile app experience, or is that something that they're purposefully doing?

00:27:33:07 - 00:27:57:03

Jacob

Yeah, it's it's tough getting people from from actually into the app. I think once people pay, they're probably pretty motivated. What I've seen work well is, is you offer up a number of methods where you can have a, a magic link that sends their email that opens, they can open up on their phone. You put a QR code that they can scan and open the app.

00:27:57:08 - 00:28:22:18

Jacob

And so I think usually like similar as the payment methods were, more is better having a variety of options for people to get into the app. But then you know, they've created an account at this point you have their email. And so automatically sending them an email link as well is good. But it's it's it's tricky. So it does seem like that could be that they could be doing a little more there in terms of you know, just creating the most frictionless experience, possible.

00:28:22:20 - 00:28:45:08

Jacob

But I think QR codes plus email usually is the easiest. Sometimes you know, you can if, if create an account, you can just send them an email. They can log in in the app, because their account is already created. Sometimes you do it with a, you know, like a unique token that's generated that instead of the email, click this, the magic link that then opens, opens the app.

00:28:45:08 - 00:28:57:07

Jacob

It automatically logs the man. So there's a few different ways to do it. But it's not like it's never super easy and it's never perfect. And so you try to do the best as possible with providing users options.

00:28:57:09 - 00:29:14:01

Steve

That takes us to the end of the web funnel. But before we go, let's just run over a couple takeaways from what we were talking about after, you know, refreshing. I mean, I know you're super familiar with headways, onboarding and their paywall and stuff like that, but after getting a quick refresher, what do you think? They did really well here?

00:29:14:02 - 00:29:17:13

Steve

If you could name like maybe to two things that they did really, really well.

00:29:17:15 - 00:29:45:10

Jacob

The entry into the onboarding all was the most important. Just getting people started super quickly. Sometimes people put too much friction in those early questions, to get people in. But but really, just one is the super simple. Everybody can answer with one click, just go in. I think that's really great. One that they do an amazing job of alternating between the questions and the motivation and, and social proof and and never overloading you too much with questions.

00:29:45:10 - 00:29:54:00

Jacob

And so really kind of balancing the, the cognitive load and your emotions between, questions and then a motivation reinforcement.

00:29:54:04 - 00:30:04:23

Steve

If you were to, you know, do another write up on headways onboarding going into like next year. What are some things you'd want to see them like work on this year to to get like an A+ grade?

00:30:05:00 - 00:30:27:12

Jacob

Well, to be honest, I think they're doing quite well. They probably have that. They probably don't care about my grade. They're probably, doing just fine. I think that one thing that would be cool is a little more real personalization. Based on the questions, maybe different flows showing me different things. It's it's kind of full personalization right now.

00:30:27:12 - 00:30:54:15

Jacob

You ask, you answer all these things, but your experience doesn't really change. And so I think that could be interesting. I think there's so many things you could do there. I'm sure the pricing works really well. It feels a touch manipulative. And I think that, you know, they're a big business to doing quite well. And so it's always the it's tricky to balance maximizing revenue and doing the best thing for the user.

00:30:54:17 - 00:31:00:09

Jacob

Usually you try to align them as much as possible. But that, that those are the two things I think about off the bat.

00:31:00:11 - 00:31:09:18

Steve

Thanks, Jacob. Thank you so much, everyone watching. Make sure you go check out retention Dot blog for a ton more from Jacob. And appreciate it man. Thanks for coming on.

00:31:09:20 - 00:31:11:02

Jacob

Yeah thanks, Steve. This is great.